Spiritual Speculation – U.G. Krishnamurti

There are floods. The flood water overflowed the bounds of the river and flooded the nearby villages. The dead bodies of cattle,humans, trees are carried in the swirls of the flood. The affluents from the sewage of the nearby city make the water look more muddy. The usually calm river has turned violent. It’s bounds were dug away by the villagers in normal times into their fields. Now the flood has seeped through the bounds. There is no escape from the floods.Everything on the way of the river will be washed away into the sea.
**************

while reading about J Krishnamurti,I came across the criticism of him by U.G.Krishnamurti

(Uppaluri Gopala Krishnamurti). He was taking J Krishnamurti for a task for not following

his own tenets. J Krishnamurti proclaimed “Truth is a pathless land.Nobody can teach it to anybody”. But he started schools to teach how to live. Having an epiphany is not a ticket to teach people about everything under the Sun.

U.G.Krishnamurti has been a desperate seeker of God. He used to attend J Krishnamurti’s meetings. Unlike J Krishnamurti, he was highly qualified for his pursuit. At some point in his life he has undergone what he called as “calamity” and his body has attained “natural state”. The main feature of this active state was annihilation of self. His thought came into existance only on demand from the surroundings.Otherwise, for all practical reasons there was no self consciouness, no thought.

His teachings are similar to those of J Krishnamurti.He mainly differed in two points. UG said, “Through  thought only we know we are in the natural state. Without thought there’s no knowing”. While J Krishnamurti said, “for the perception of Truth, thought is not required”. After all, while looking at a house you don’t need to think  it is a house or that is a chair.

UG told there is nothing to be transformed in a man. So all the inquiry in that direction is futile.

U.G. has to be credited with de-mistifying spirituality. He said his natural state is nothing related to moksha, bliss or ecstasy. He has entered that state despite, not because of, his efforts. He does not know how one enters it or not sure if anybody can enter that state. It might be possible that he was chosen by some external entity for entering the natural state,or he has the unique genes required for that. It could be an accident in which the necessary conditions for entering that state are met. He shooed away people who came to meet him some times. He sometimes hesitated to describe his natural state for some people might wrongly delude to attain it based on his description.

UG opined that self-conscious entity in us is not required for the survival of human race.

But with out self-consciousness we can’t assume man could do planning. Self-consciousness is responsible for controlling, tracking, monitoring and supervising one’s actions.The actions are due to motivations to gain power, achievement and popularity etc. These motivations are inherited by man from animals. Without self-conscious-ness many of the human achievements would not have been possible. Once man faces a problem he internalizes it’s effects and plans the counter measures. This greatly enhances his survival. Both UG and J Krishnamurti told thought could be used for practical purposes like scientific research,commerce. But thought is a liability in psychological or self-consciousness related issues. But, the problem here is there is no clear-cut distinction between practical and psychological and practical or physical needs. For instance,let’s think a person has a mental ailment. He needs to cure his mental ailment both for psychological and practical reasons.

Some drugs like LSD result in dissolving of the self,though temporarily. In this case if a man tries and consumes LSD, he will be in that state. Similarly, in future, genetic engineering might make it possible for a person to enter the natural state. In those cases, elusive theories about effort or thought not touching the natural state may prove wrong. So, because of the achievements of  thought in genetics,one will be able to enter the natural state.

If you tell a kid don’t ever enter into that room,the kid will surely try to enter that room. UG was criticised of adopting similar tactics to gain popularity. His statements”Don’t come to me. I do not have anything to say” attracted more people to him. “Whether UGconsciously adopted the technique” is matter of conjecture.

UG is blamed for escaping responsibility and being a coward. He abandoned his family and abdicated his responsibility.In a similar way,he abdicated the responsibility to make people aware of the issues involved in his chats/talks. Many times he was irreverent to people.

That was his personality.He was maverick, pugnacious and at times repelling. But his approach looked more open and honest. Sometimes he even allowed scientists to study his body.

Rajneesh once quoted the words of UG from his early days about Ramana Maharshi out of contextand criticised UG. But UG him self never said after his calamity that his own words withRamana Maharshi were justfied.

There is an ancient Indian saying, “Ekam sadwipraah bahudaa vadanti”. The single entity is expressed in many ways.When one looks at people like J Krishnamurti, UG, Ramanamaharshi, one could not help wonder if all of them are talking about one and the same thing,but are expressing it differently depending on their personalities.

…to continue

ఓ అమెరికా వాడి రైలు బండి

ఒక ఆంధ్ర సాఫ్ట్ వేర్ ఇంజినీర్ కథ

ప్రకటనలు

35 thoughts on “Spiritual Speculation – U.G. Krishnamurti”

    1. This is not my opinion. I am not sure about that.That’s why I told it’s a matter of conjecture.

      About the second statement… his thought works on demand. That implies his self comes into existance intermittantly if the situation demands (This is not same as the self-consciousness). His close friends like J Narayana Moorty said,(not in the same words) “UG adopts his blistering approach to cut the base from the feet of the listerner and make him realize about their mental structure”. This indicates he is capable of deploying techniques.

      మెచ్చుకోండి

  1. “This indicates he is capable of deploying techniques.”

    He never had any need for him to formulate and deploy any technique.

    A person who never knew (after his calamity) whether he was alive or dead, how can he formulate anything.

    Had he adopted any technique, that technique would have resulted in multibillionaire spiritual business with foundations, birthday celebrations and political influences etc etc.

    Like a free bird, he sang his song and flew away.

    We are left with interpreting his song in thousands of different ways and attributing several qualities to him based on our misinterpretations and our conditioned thinking.

    Do not think ‘about’ UG, you miss the whole point of what he said and stood for.

    మెచ్చుకోండి

  2. Have you ever met UG?

    All those things you described about UG’s expressions are total outcome of your ignorance about UG personality.

    I am damn sure that you never saw UG in person. Any how it does not matter whether you saw him or not.

    Some part of your description about UG comes under the heavy influence of J Krishnamurti on your consciousness.

    When I started reading J Krishnamurti, I was 16 year old. It is the age normally the young people would have romantic thoughts and fanciful dreams. I remember cycling more than 15Km many times to read JK’s books available scarcely only in certain libraries. The cost of those books were unaffordable. Yet, I could quote every line of the JK’s masterpiece “Commentaries on Living” , especially its volume 2 was my favorite.

    But J Krishnamurti took me to a different wonderland. Watching sunset and listening to the non-existent and imaginary silence had become an important part of my daily routine.

    It took 12 full years for me to realize that I was no different from young people who are fantasizing about their girlfriends with romantic thoughts. My JK kind of spiritual thoughts are no different from romantic thoughts of a young boy/girl.

    When I realized about JK’s influence was on me, I was in Rishi Valley.

    I was utterly disgusted with the battle between the JK’s loyalist in me and the natural me.

    With more than 12 years of my experience with JK’s teaching and my deep thoughts about his philosophy and my futile efforts to lead an ideal life on the lines of JK’s teachings, I can understand every one in the inebriated state under the influence of JK’s teachings. I do not criticize them nor laugh at them nor heckle at them.

    JK’s teachings if it really had affected you, it would instill a perfect order inside you.

    We adore that order. We respect that order. We even become afraid of drifting an inch from that order.

    But that order takes away the very essence of life.

    That perfect order instilled by JK (or his kinda of spiritual leaders) becomes a curse in your life.

    To know life and taste it, you need to drift away from that order and thus may have to commit mistakes and do experiments as if it is not your life.

    It requires lot of courage and guts to disband the freezing and paralyzing order, instilled by some great and tall philosophers, in which we have taken shelter and feel that we are different from others.

    But there is a different kind of order amidst chaos and anarchy.

    We are afraid of meeting those chaos. Those who choose to swim across those chaotic currents of life can find the order of life, which no book, no organization, no philosopher, no spiritual leader, no political ideologue can provide you.

    What you could see in UG was exactly such chaotic expression of life.

    Your conditioning to lead a safe and perfectly ordered life would have made you to feel UG to be distasteful.

    But those who loved LIFE would have definitely admired UG and his expressions.

    మెచ్చుకోండి

    1. Dear sir,
      I hope you have read other pieces in Spritual Speculation series. As I confessed, they are my speculations only. I am just speculating about UG,JK, etc. I could be wrong entirely. As you have told, does it matter if I saw UG? He himself would shoo away spiritual gold hunters.
      How ever it would have been helpful, if you have pointed out my ignorance and and proved how you are right. Asfor influence of JK on me, I hope you had read other parts in the spiritual speculation.
      I am never very passionately attached to any of these spiritual personalities. I have my own thinking caps.

      మెచ్చుకోండి

      1. Dear Sir,

        If you may allow me, then I would suggest you one thing:

        “Stop Speculating and Start Tasting the Harsh Reality”

        I burnt not just my fingers but a quarter of my life in speculations and with speculative teachings and philosophies.

        The reality is the reflection of individual self.

        Your other articles are very interesting and I liked your article on MAHAKAVI Sri Sri.

        మెచ్చుకోండి

  3. “He never had any need for him to formulate and deploy any technique.”

    Interestingly, in one of his early recordings in Gstaad UG says that he would either have to remain silent or “evolve a technique” to “push you into this state”. However, he also claimed that his statements were not the product of thinking (i.e. not consciously formulated). Personally, I do not believe that UG had a technique. It seems more like he was simply responding to people’s questions in a very natural way.

    మెచ్చుకోండి

  4. ఈ మధ్య యూ జీ ది ఒక వీడియో చూశాను, యూ ట్యూబ్ లో. అది సోనియా గాంధీ గురించి.యూ జీ చెప్పిన మాటలు. దాని వలన నాకు చివరి రోజులలో ఆయన కు కొంచెం మతి స్థిమితం తప్పిందా అనే అనుమానం కలిగింది. ఈ మధ్య నాకు కలిగిన ఇంకొక సందేహం ఏమిటంటే, తన కెటాస్ట్రోప్ తరువాత యూ జీ లో ఫిజికల్ గా “నేను” పోయిందని చెప్పాడు. చిన్న చిన్న రోజు వారీ మాటలు కూడా నేర్చుకొన వలసి వచ్చింది అని చెప్పారు. కానీ ఆ తరువాత అనేక ఇంటర్వ్యూ ల లో ఆయన తన పూర్వ స్మృతులను(యవ్వనం లోని, చిన్నప్పటి) గుర్తు తెచ్చుకొని చెప్పగలిగారు (మహేష్ భట్ పుస్తకం కోసం). యూ గీ లోని ‘నేనూ భౌతికం గా నాశనమైనపుడు, ఆ తరువాత ఎలా చెప్పగలిగారు?
    నేను ఈ మధ్య తన లాంగ్ టైం మెమరీ ని కోల్పోయిన ఒక వ్యక్తి గురించి న్యూయార్క్-టైంస్ లో చదివాను. ఆ స్థితి లో అతని లోని ‘నేనూ చాలా వరకూ ఉండదు..కానీ అతను అదేమీ ఒక రివెలేషన్ లా చెప్పలేదు. పైగా తను ఏదో మిస్ అవుతున్నట్లు గా ఫీల్ అవుతున్నానని చెప్పాడు. అతనికి తన జీవితం లోని ఒక రెండు గంటల ముందు జరిగినవి ఏవీ గుర్తుండవు. ఒక యాక్సిడెంట్లో అతను తన మెమరీ ని కోల్పోయాడు. మొత్తం మీద అతనిని పూర్తి ఆరోగ్యం గా పని చేయని ఒక మెడికల్ కండిషన్ గానే చూడాలి.
    కానీ జె కే, యూ జీ కే ల ప్రకారం అతను రివెలేషన్ కి దగ్గరగా ఉండాలి. లేక మనం వీరి ఇద్దరినీ తప్పుగా అర్ధం చేసుకుంటున్నామా?

    మెచ్చుకోండి

  5. Yes. Here’e the translation..
    Of late, I have seen a video of UG in you tube. That’s about UG’s utterances about Sonia Gandhi. He calls her a bitch, and she is a hoax.He claimed, having learnt even KGB could not do any harm to him, Sonia Gandhi backed off from confronting him. I felt in his last days he had become a bit mentally ill. I have one more misgiving about UG recently. After his calamity UG claimed he lost his memory completely and had to relearn even common vocabulary. He told He lost ‘I’ physically But after the calamity, in many interviews he could narrate many incidents of his childhood and adolescent life. If the I center in UG is permanantly lost how could he narrate the incidents of earlier life.?

    Recently I have read the story of a man who lost his long time memory, in NY times. In that state his I should be absent to a large extent. But that person did not feel that state as a “revelation” or epiphany. On the contrary he told he felt he was missing something in his life. He could not remember anthing that had happened 2 hours earlier. He lost his memory in an accident. We need to see his state as a “medical condition” only.
    But according to UG and JK this person should be near the revelation, OR Are we misunderstanding them both?

    మెచ్చుకోండి

  6. Thanks for the translations sir. I agree with nearly all of what you have posted and commented.
    I must say very candid thoughts.

    UG’s approach seem to be honest. He had good insight into “holy business”.Though he made lots sense, some of his words are to be considered as opinions and not a gospel truth.

    One can find lots of parallel between his teaching and nihilism. UG is unique cocktail of zen/advaita/naturalism/nihilism.interesting guy.

    Some how I have the feeling that he was not done with “enlightenment”. Even in his “Swan Song” , he indirectly maintained that he was enlightened. During his last days he allowed people to praise him in songs and poems. don’t know why?

    మెచ్చుకోండి

    1. He dismissed the idea of “enlighetnment, Moksha, bliss as eternal happiness”. He told his natural state was not a state of bliss. He also dismissed the existance of timeless state , eternal states.
      As soon as one questions about timeless state, eternal tnings etc, Jiddu Krishna murti used to turn attention to the questioner. Why the questioner was asking the question etc. So, I think even JK was indirectly feeling those timeless states were not realizable.
      I could not comprehend some of the mystical miracles quoted by UG’s friend, by UG. How one should take such mystical incidents. Swelling of glands, natural state is something similar to the news item about a man’s magnet like body attracting iron etc.
      If JK , UG kind of persons have realized the state of “no self”, that still leaves us with questions about the god in physical terms. Theories in cosmology and quantum mechanics answer these questions better in intellectual terms. I do not know if any spiritual teacher had a direct experience of that Truth/God/Ultimate reality in physical terms.
      A no self state could probably achieved by other aproaches..some drug, some future technology/surgery, genetic engineering. But having attained that state still may not be equal to perceiving the final physical reality behind the Universe, the god or ultimate truth in physical terms.

      మెచ్చుకోండి

  7. Thats right , nothing explains Truth/God/Ultimate Reality. Even UG maintained the same. I believe “no self” is the ‘highest’ possible state human brain can comprehend. Having read lots of such stuff I have come to the conclusion that Nihilism is right , but we cant stay at that extreme and Philosophy of Science / personal experimentation / experiences are the things I should subscribe to. Even scientists are agreeing that what they discover is just a workable model and theories and may not be touching the underlying reality at all. They agree that “wave-particle” of electron behavior is just a useful model and there may be n valid model proposed to explain different behaviors of the same phenomenon. They call it model-based realism. Though this is not something new in science community , the terminology is new.
    Amoeba may never “know” what sexual reproduction and human brain may never reach the Truth and Truth may be just an invention of human thought. Though I have many misgivings about UG/JK( no disrespect to him) , i think they came very closer to this. But somehow knowingly or unknowingly they projected the image of “Master” in our mind.

    – KV

    note: i am the guy who asked for translation. mentioning this just to maintain the continuity of the conversation

    మెచ్చుకోండి

  8. Perhaps not only in his last days. I think valid questions can be raised about the relation (if any) between mental illness and the state of a person, who has undergone something like UG’s “calamity” (or even something like JK’s “process”). Here’s an interesting extract from a book on UG called “Stopped in Our Tracks”:

    There was a psychiatrist, a leading psychiatrist, who came to see me in Marseilles. We talked for hours and hours and days. He wanted to be with me all the time. He was one of the top notch psychiatrists and psychologists. One day I think he remained with me for 24 hours. He talked, talked and talked. “This is a textbook case, a mental case, you know. I should put you in the hospital for the way you talk,” he said, “but there is one question I really don’t know [the answer to]: whether I am insane or you are insane.” So he left his job after that encounter with me.
    Source: http://www.well.com/~jct/chandra.htm

    No, he never claimed that. What he claimed was that memory was no longer interfering with the functioning of the senses, “unless there was a need to use memory”.

    మెచ్చుకోండి

  9. “that memory was no longer interfering with the functioning of the senses, “unless there was a need to use memory”

    After re-reading his answers I found you were right sir. Thank you!

    “After his calamity UG claimed he lost his memory completely and had to relearn even common vocabulary.”.

    It’s not a claim as such. But he lost memory. Later he regained it.

    ****http://www.ugkrishnamurti.net/ugkrishnamurti-net/mystiq1.htm
    “What is that?” Like a baby, I had to relearn everything all over (not actually relearn, but all the knowledge was in the background and never came to the forefront, you see). It started — the whole business — “What is this crazy business?” I have to put it in words;”****

    *****Valentine had prepared tomato soup. I looked at it, and I didn’t know what it was. She told me it was tomato soup, and I tasted it, and I recognized*****
    *****Of course ########now I have my memory back####### — I lost it at first, but now I have it back — but my memory is in the background and only comes into play when it’s needed, automatically. When it’s not needed, there is no mind here, there is no thought, there is only life.*******

    మెచ్చుకోండి

  10. It seems during his natural state his memory acts as a sink output. During natural state he does not retrieve the words etc from memory, but his natural state experience is recorded by memory. That’s why he could recount about his natural state later.
    Even though the natural state is “I” less/thought less state, it might not be the ultimate Truth.

    మెచ్చుకోండి

  11. bondalapati, That’s right. He does not retrieve words from memory unless somehow prompted by other people or circumstances.

    “But having attained that state still may not be equal to perceiving the final physical reality behind the Universe, the god or ultimate truth in physical terms.”

    Yes. And it looks like no satisfactory resolution of such metaphysical inquiries is forthcoming. It’s interesting, however, that UG claimed to have some kind of an awareness of the body’s non-separateness from the life around. Life is a major theme in UG’s talks, and his use of this word may have been influenced by his theosophical background. In the early years, JK also spoke a lot about “the Life of all things” in very poetic terms.

    మెచ్చుకోండి

  12. if you are going on a bike and suddenly an accident happens, then in that extreme state of anxiety for moments you are not aware of yourself, you may not know even your name. But this state is a state of exclusion. It excludes not only the awareness of youself , but the rest of the world. You focus only on the accident situation and your primary nervous system takes over.It’s not a state of self-lessness, but a state of extreme self preserving mode. You focus on the highly important thing required for survival.It’s concentration of self on a single thing that poses threat to the self. It’s not same as the natural state which UG underwent. In natural state you do not focus , but you attention is consumed depending on the entire external reality. It’s not a an exclusion process.

    మెచ్చుకోండి

    1. @sulochanosho,
      Thank you. In UG all that matters is his natural state and calamity(to some extent his miracles).But we may not attain that state(it is not attainable) and in his words “we are not really interested in that state, since we are not interested in loosing self”. All the rest, his opinions, his abuses, his deranged behavior etc..we can take as we take that of any other man.

      మెచ్చుకోండి

  13. Cool thoughts, Bondalapati.

    What do you know of BIlly Meier? And I wonder why those who are interested in socalled eastern gurus, mystics, seers, and the like, don’t know of this guy.

    For example, In reply to the question – “What essentially is to be understood by the term “supernatural”? What exactly is that, and how exactly does it function?”

    He gives an answer more comprehensive, more detailed, more complete than UG, JK, Ramana, Osho could ever hope to if they got together and wrote a paper on it.

    http://www.futureofmankind.co.uk/Billy_Meier/FIGU_Special_Bulletin_038

    మెచ్చుకోండి

  14. సీతారాం గారు,
    పైన బ్రుస్ గారికి మాంచి క్యురియాసిటి ఉన్నట్లు తెలుస్తున్నాది. బిల్లి గారు చెప్పినదానిలో నిజం ఉండవచ్చు. కాని ఆ వివరణ వలన పెద్ద లాభం లేదు. ఆయన సరిగ్గా యు జి చెప్పింది విన్నాడో లేదో నాకు తెలియదు గాని బయట కనిపించే విశ్వం మొత్తం మన శరీరం లో ఉందని అర్థం వచ్చే విధంగా చెప్పాడు. యు జి గారొక్కరే కాదు మన గురువులు చాలా మంది అదే చెప్పారు. మొన్న ఎక్కడో జగ్గివాసుదేవ్ ఉపన్యాసంలో అతను కళ్ళు మూసుకొని తన శరీరం లో జరిగే దానిని చూస్తూ కుచొన్నాడట, ఆయన దానిని 4గం|| కూచొన్నాని భావిస్తే, అదే బయట వారు ఇతను 13 రోజులు అలా కదలకుండా ఈయన ఎలా కూచొన్నాడని ఆశ్చర్య పోయారని చెప్పాడు. రామకృష్ణ పరమహంస నుంచి యు.జి. వరకు అందరూ తమను కలసిన వారిని వారి వారి అర్హతలను బట్టి ఆధ్యాత్మిక అభ్యున్నతి కొరకు సహాయ పడ్డారు. దానికే వారు ప్రాముఖ్యత నిచ్చారు. వివరణలకు కాదు. అలా వివరించుకొంట్టూ పోతే అది సాధ్యమయ్యే పని కాదు కనుకనే, మంత్ర పుష్పంలో సహస్రశీర్షా,సహస్రాక్ష,సహస్రపాత్ అంటూ అన్నిటిని వేయికి పరిమితం చేశారు.

    మెచ్చుకోండి

  15. యు జి గారు చెప్పిన పైన మాట అందరికి వర్తించదు. ఆరోజు ఆయన దగ్గర ఎవరు ఉన్నారో, ఎవరు ప్రశ్నించారో, వారికి మాత్రమే వర్తిస్తుంది. ఈ సమాధానం తరువాతా ఆ ప్రశ్నించిన వారికి ఒక జవాబు దొరుకుతుంది. అంతే కాని పుస్తకాలు చదివిన వారు, ఆయన ఇచ్చిన సమాధానం వారిని ఉద్దేశించి చెప్పినదిగా 100% అనుకోకుడదు. ప్రతి మనిషి యునిక్ కనుక ఆయనని కలసిన వారి అందరికి ఆయన స్టేట్ రావలని ఎమీలేదు. ఆయా వ్యక్తులు వారి వారి శరీర తత్వాన్ని బట్టి వారిలో మార్పులు జరుగుతాయి. వారి ప్రశ్నలు తిన్నగా ఆగిపోతాయి/ విలువను కోల్పోతాయి. విజయానంద్ వీడీయో చూడండి.

    మెచ్చుకోండి

  16. “ఆరోజు ఆయన దగ్గర ఎవరు ఉన్నారో, ఎవరు ప్రశ్నించారో, వారికి మాత్రమే వర్తిస్తుంది. ఈ సమాధానం తరువాతా ఆ ప్రశ్నించిన వారికి ఒక జవాబు దొరుకుతుంది. అంతే కాని పుస్తకాలు చదివిన వారు, ఆయన ఇచ్చిన సమాధానం వారిని ఉద్దేశించి చెప్పినదిగా 100% అనుకోకుడదు. ”
    May be you are correct.
    విజయానంద్ వీడీయో చూడండి.
    I have seen it.
    Billy Meier looks like a hoax to me.

    మెచ్చుకోండి

  17. With all due respect, bondalapati; you have preconceptions based on your conditioning, as JK would say. Your beliefs, in other words, your assumptions and presumptions, not logic-based/fact-based thought, have automatically answered for you.

    Perhaps you are not ready to part with your cultural heros, like UG, JK, OSHO, Ramana, etc and sentiment has come in, knee-jerk style, in defense of these icons you have created in your mind, despite the fact that all of them would tell you not to do such a thing.

    You did not read his reply concerning what is to be understood by the term supernatural. I would be interested in your critique of his words regarding what is to be understood by the supernatural.

    మెచ్చుకోండి

    1. JK,UG, Ramana etc are not my heroes. You might be looking at me through the spectacles of nationality and assuming me to accept them as my heroes.
      I read Bil’s words sometime back.Then I remember thinking nothing substantial about them. Do not remember those exact words now though. But the stories about his contact with Aliens etc made me suspect him.
      If I go though his words again, I’ll let you know

      మెచ్చుకోండి

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